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Palm Strikes & 1 ko shot power???

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Palm Strikes & 1 ko shot power???

Postby viper on Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:04 pm

Has anyone heard of or known somebody who has ko'd people with palm strikes(I'm talking of 1 shot power). The reason I'm asking is I've heard quite a few stories of people using fists to pretty much near-letal effect. Remember John Skillen saying from the Geoff Thompson Forum that the last guy he laid out with a punch was unconscious for nearly 45 mins and Geoff Thompson is a big advocate of punching too. I know the Senshido approach is open hand that's why I'm asking.

Thanks
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Postby Big Rob on Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:27 pm

Absolutely.

A few weeks ago I hit Ronnie with a palm strike to the plexi-glass of his helmet and it caused him to become dizzy, disoriented and then fall to the ground un-capable of getting up immediately but he did not completely loss consciousness.

Shortly after that he did the same thing to me so don't feel bad for him.

On the other hand in the past I have hit people with a palm and caused them to go unconscious and I have seen and heard of many others with the same result.

Quick story I have a RBSD school right by my house the instructor (Master Tague) got into an altercation right outside the front of the school. The school was letting out and someone had parked their car in the way of the exit. Master Tague went out to see who's car it was only to find a large black man sitting in the drivers seat. He asked the guy to move his car to which the guy refused saying that his girlfriend was using the payphone and he would leave when she was done. Master Tague tried to ask nicely several times then the guy got angry, Master Tague told the guy that he was going inside to call the police the guy got out of his car and started yelling and screaming at him, Master Tague took a passive stance and the guy approached him screaming and yelling waving his arms in anger, he got a little too close and Master Tague palm struck him right in the chin knock the guy out cold. Now I use this story to illustrate because Master Tague is not young he is in his late 60's so it was pretty effective and impressive.
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Postby le W on Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:12 pm

Big Rob wrote:
A few weeks ago I hit Ronnie with a palm strike to the plexi-glass of his helmet and it caused him to become dizzy, disoriented and then fall to the ground un-capable of getting up immediately but he did not completely loss consciousness.

Shortly after that he did the same thing to me so don't feel bad for him.


Be careful of whiplash you maniacs .

W
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Postby Bri Thai on Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:36 pm

If you are talking knockout by a strike to the jaw, then the knuckles are probably better for that "bone on bone" contact that really transmits into the head - and then out for the count.

Now the palm can do it too but, in my view, not quite as effectively. The padding at the palm heel acts a little like a boxing glove would, i.e. dulling the blow a little. Its no longer really bone on bone.

However, all things considered, the downside of the fists are that they damage more easily, so the choice isn't simple.

I have knocked people out with both and, on balance, think that the palm is the wisest choice.
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Postby Richard Dimitri on Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:50 pm

Depends how you palm.

I literally nearly took a guy's head off in a fight with a palm strike. The result? Broken jaw, broken teeth, and half his tongue on the floor.

One of my female students also knocked a man twice her size down and out with a solid palm heal strike under the jaw (under his field of vision, he never saw it coming as she used the passive stance strategy).

If you trap I.e. immobilize, anchor etc. while you palm heal strike, it will be that much more devastating.

Punching to the head or facial area has too many cons. You can break your hand, knuckles, metacarpals and that leaves you a one handed fighter. Punching requires timing, strength and precise target acquisition to make it fully functional, not a luxury everyone possesses in terms of self defense (my mother for instance will never, ever be able to knock out a potential assailant with a punch no matter how long she trains, however, a palm strike requires less strength with minimimal to no damage done to the striker). There are no guarantees of knocking your opponent out with a punch either.

Not to mention, open handed strikes leads to Shredding which is by far, a thousand times more devastating than any punch thrown.

It simply isn't worth it to punch to the head in a real fight especially when there are other options that are much safer and much more reliable.

Don't just single out the tool (punch, palm strike etc.) it is critical to look at the behvioral delivery system behind it, the strategy which accompanies it and the all the little pieces of the puzzle that sooooo many freaking people out there neglect to take into account.

However, I know that there are 'punching' advocates out there who'll still prefer to duke it out and that's there prerogative. :roll: In the end, do what works for you best.
Sincerely,
Rich

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Postby [ted] on Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:59 pm

This whole question of whatever causes a one strike knock out is kind of funny...it seems logical that any strike can cause a one hit knock out...why would a fist be any better than an open palm? Because its harder? Its not the hardness that causes someone to lose consciousness...

It is pretty close to the ammo debate with firearms geeks.... .45 or 9mm for sure thing one shot stopping power? Answer? Doesn't matter, depends on where you're hitting with your shots...and the person you're shooting at...and...and...
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Postby Contemporary Fighter on Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:41 pm

I like the idea of the knockout, as opposed to drawing blood or poking eyes out or ripping ears off. When applicable/appropriate/situation allows, I like the idea of a tool to help me if possible. I've never knocked out someone, but I know I can generate more force per square inch with one of these tools. I know ... no guaranteed knockout but I do get some degree of confidence (real or not) from knowing I have the option.

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Postby viper on Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:52 pm

Thanks for the responses
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Postby malevolent preacher on Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:41 am

No questions... punches are devastating...

Pros: High impact, can cause lacerations, cut and concussive force

Con's: Potential hand damage... bacterial infections (we have student who almost lost his hand because he got gangrene from knocking a guy's teeth out) such as Hep a/b (200x more contagious than HIV) HIV. A punch in court sometimes looks bad. and more

Palm stiking:

Pros: Concussive impact without the risks stated above, loads/delivers the shred/anchor naturally. Easier to work on the quarter beat. Can convert into a grab/shred/anchor instantly.

Cons: Might expose fingers, this is why I deliver my palm strikes with a fist that "open's" before impact, driving the heel in and loading the fingers...

I'm sure forgot tons of stuff... fill in the blanks if you are up to it! Remember, most of the time you walk barehanded. I rarely see people walk around with hand protection....

Cheers!
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Postby PeterMuwonge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:16 am

I agree with the above posts. I think you guys forgot one major con with palming and that is--assuming linear attack--reduced reach. Also, if a palm strike lands above the palm (i.e. knuckle or finger level) the wrist/fingers can be broken. Also, a palm has more surface area than a punch meaning there are spatial disadvantages (harder to strike inside someones guard, etc.)
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Postby Richard Dimitri on Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:21 am

Also, a palm has more surface area than a punch meaning there are spatial disadvantages (harder to strike inside someones guard, etc.)


Don't look at it from a sparring perspective, with a half decent behavioral delivery system, none of these cons are an issue in any way.

The problem is that everyone is looking at it from a squaring off or sparring perspective. There's a time and a place for the proper tool, if any of the above Pete mentions happens while palming, then you are using an inappropriate tool, in this case, the palm) at an inappropriate time.

This is why I said not to isolate the single tool, what context is it being used in?
Sincerely,
Rich

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Postby PeterMuwonge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:43 am

Actually Rich, I was looking at it from the perspective of a live opponent who actually reacts and moves before, during, and after delivery. When I refer to guard I do not mean squaring off but rather hand/arm positioning and the obstacle it presents. I haven't sparred in several years and do not think of combat in that light. Can't speak for the other posters though...
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Postby Livo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:20 am

The plastic kerambits and stingers are illegal here AFAIK.

That, and I've heard crap things about the proper kerambits from a self-defence point of view (carrying, drawing under stress etc).

What about slaps? On the GT board, a few power have used pre-emptive slaps with success. I've only done slaps on the bag (not on the Senshido headgear, but couldn't that lead to whiplash?), so I can't really say whether I feel in training they'd be better than palm heels.
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Postby viper on Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:12 am

The most damage I've heard is a guy fracturing another's skull in an altercation in prison(Co ko'd inmate)using a leopard palm strike(a palm heel with circular motion coming from outside the field of vision). This was told to me by the late John McSweeney in a conversation. The blow actually fratured the skull not the secondary impact of skull hitting floor. Seems to be a bit of a rare occurence-never heard that before.
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Postby malevolent preacher on Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:40 pm

Good points Peter and rich... From experience, my hands suffered more from punches than palms strikes. I've delivered huge punches holding the guy's hair with his head turned sideways (on the deck) and hitting the junction of the lower manibule and skull. I guess his head bouncing on the ground at the same time played a part :wink: It was OK on the hand. Also, I was hammering more then punching...

Ciao
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Postby Sniper on Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:08 pm

i heard a story of a bonucer doing a upper-cut motion do a guys jaw basically what happened was he split his hole knuckles becasue he hit the teeth! OUCH! but was even more worth was that he had a infection and he almost had to cut off his hand ... ask him now always palm strikes its alot more saver for yourself but will hit the bad guy harder depends where u connect with him
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